jonstahl: maybe!
MattBowen|work: Sweet! Wait, no! The highs! The lows!
You are now known as shurik
SnowWrite: what is your definition of an integrator jon?
***SnowWrite needs sticky dots
jonstahl: off the top of my head...
SnowWrite: how do I change the topic?
jonstahl: people who build Plone sites for clients (internal or external), but are not involved in development of the Plone core.
jonstahl: SnowWrite: use /topic
SnowWrite: thank you jonstahl
SnowWrite: ok great.. 
SnowWrite: MattBowen|work: repeat yours... 
esteele: That would seem to also include "product developers".
SnowWrite: pleease 
davisagli_: right.  so it can encompass both using existing products and writing custom code
jonstahl: esteele: i think most product developers are "integrators"
jonstahl: yes.
esteele: Fair enough.
SnowWrite: very valid point.. 
MattBowen|work: A person who primarily customizes Plone by using existing products and well-defined methods (e.g., skinning)
jonstahl: i imagine there are few people building products who don't implement plone sites or are not core developers.
jonstahl: i would consider product developers the "high end" of the integrator space.
SnowWrite: right....that's what I'm thinking
SnowWrite: we have a large scale.. 
***esteele feels embiggened.
shurik: you have to build a product to integrate a plone site, but you don't have to integrate a plone site to build a product
SnowWrite: embiggened? lol
SnowWrite: sounds like spam.. hahaha
jonstahl: a noble spirit embiggens the smallest man.
MattBowen|work: Do we differentiate between AGX developers and others?
SnowWrite: heehee
esteele: SnowWrite: It's a perfectly cromulent word.
SnowWrite: well that's where we want to define this.. 
SnowWrite: when we say.. "improve the integrators story"
MattBowen|work: we mean make buildout harder and get more ZCML?
***SnowWrite sends MattBowen|work  to the corner
MattBowen|work is now known as MattBowen|corner
unclelarry: AGX is nice for those of too busy or too old to code by hand :-)
jonstahl: i think there might be a good argument for defining "add on product developer" as slightly outside of integrator-space.  i like the idea of targeting people who build sites by doing visual themeing, using existing products, and maybe, just maybe, modifying them a bit.
SnowWrite: I know it's hard to pin down.. "who" we should focus on. do we break this down.. by high end integrators who care more about better tols.. 
MattBowen|corner: jonstahl: +1
SnowWrite: agreed jonstahl
jonstahl: i think it also could/should include the task of building new content types, simple workflows, etc.
SnowWrite: yes
MattBowen|corner: I think we might be able to include AGX folks who almost never touch the generated code
jonstahl: MattBowen|corner: +1
davisagli_: I think our goal should be to make more tasks approachable to the low-end integrator
SnowWrite: davisagli_: +1
***jonstahl desperately needs to eat. brb.
MattBowen|corner: like, I felt like I had made a big jump when I went from pushing everything through AGX to reading ATContentTypes and overriding inherited methods
MattBowen|corner: davisagli_: +1
***SnowWrite doesn't really consider herself low-end though.. I mean I know the zmi inside and out... I can stop and start zope.. I can install products...
MattBowen|corner: low end is a bad word
SnowWrite: I can theme.. so I suppose in relation to those who actually "code"
davisagli_: SnowWrite: I mean, more things should be approachable to someone who's scared of reading the source code ;-P
MattBowen|corner: I'd rather reasonably technical and highly technical 
SnowWrite: and the big thing... is for those of us who deal with clients... 
SnowWrite: right MattBowen|corner 
SnowWrite: heehed davisagli_ :-)
unclelarry: low-end and low-leve could be confused... or low-end could sound Wal-Mart-ish
MattBowen|corner: Are people OK with differentiating on how technical the integrator is? 
MattBowen|corner: Like, you could be like SnowWrite and be a totally highend person who is not so technical that she wants to read source
SnowWrite: I don't think it's a bad word per se.. just that it's not necessarily accurate.. 
***MattBowen|corner thinks naming things is important
SnowWrite: right.. source code doesn't get me excited... awesome themes and easy to install products do... and easier access to to things that I don't have to as Steve to do
shurik: in what context will you be differentiating between these roles? When writing documentation?
SnowWrite: ask
davisagli_: MattBowen|corner: yes, that's more on the right track
SnowWrite: ah that's another level shurik.. but I think we do need to have a good concept of what an integrator is... 
MattBowen|corner: then, personas!
SnowWrite: right MattBowen|corner 
davisagli_: the distinction might be partly a matter of experience
***MattBowen|corner shuts about about personas for at least 30 minutes
shurik: why
MattBowen|corner: davisagli_: honestly, I disagree
MattBowen|corner: davisagli_: I dove into source code two months in
davisagli_: MattBowen|corner: so did I
gkirk [n=gkirk@S0106000fcbb46719.su.shawcable.net] entered the room.
unclelarry: a low-level integrator might code and work with bits and bytes...
shurik: let's define all roles we can think of and then let them coalesce into a few that make most sense...
***SnowWrite works with an itty bitty bit of python.. and lots and lots of TAL
SnowWrite: ok that' makes sense shurik
MattBowen|corner: SnowWrite: amusingly, I write everything in python and then call my python functions from TAL :)
SnowWrite: sorry..my lappie is misbehaving
MattBowen|corner: well, everything I can
SnowWrite: steve writes my python for me :-) but I deal with the clients..the phone calls.. teaching them how to do things in plone.. etc etc.. 
MattBowen|corner: So I'll propose "No coding product installer"
unclelarry: so writing page templates is one thing, writing your own content types in Python is something different.
SnowWrite: yes
MattBowen|corner: This person is afraid of even CSS
***SnowWrite likes css
***SnowWrite just doesn't like IE6
MattBowen|corner: It's a role
unclelarry: can it be a group?
davisagli_: MattBowen|corner: most of the folks here who do that also know a bit of CSS, but I'll buy it
shurik: to me an integrator is someone who connects that often disparate pieces that have to be in place to build a site...
shurik: that=the
MattBowen|corner: davisagli_: i figure if we're doing a dump, I'm aiming at the least technical person I can imagine
SnowWrite: shurik: yes... 
SnowWrite: I would say that's a good description.. 
davisagli_: MattBowen|corner: yep
MattBowen|corner: My "no coding product installer" wants a bunch of products and some nice themes, to be able to switch the logo and configure things through the plone, and could be coaxed into the ZMI with detailed instructions 
davisagli_: and they don't want to have to learn buildout to do it
MattBowen|corner: He's turning around craigslist posts for $350 a pop
SnowWrite: yes!!
MattBowen|corner: Buildout? The command line? ZOMG
davisagli_: :)
MattBowen|corner: He can copy things with FTP
MattBowen|corner: There's a chance he could run a command with detailed instructions 
SnowWrite: ok so where is the boundary?
gkirk: yeah, good idea to define some roles and descriptions
unclelarry: so he needs a TTW list of Add-on products to choose from?
MattBowen|corner: We need more roles
SnowWrite: where do we say... ok we'll do this much... 
MattBowen|corner: And Add on themes
gkirk: google spreadsheet works well for brainstorming roles :)
MattBowen|corner: SnowWrite: I figure we try to get as many of these people defined, then we say, "I won't support Sam, the product only dude"
SnowWrite: ok that makes sense.. 
shurik: gkirk: +1
davisagli_: or we identify the tasks that would help each person
SnowWrite: gkirk.. you wanna get one started
***SnowWrite is going to post this .. can this be recorded?
SnowWrite: the chat room?
***gkirk wonders why he opened his big mouth ;)
SnowWrite: hahaha
shurik: SnowWrite: usually your client would let you record
davisagli_: gkirk: in open source, suggesting == volunteering
gkirk: hehe
SnowWrite has changed the topic to: Welcome to Plone Integrators. Today February 22, 2008 is our first discussion. It's an open discussion, don't be shy. Our focus today is defining roles within the plone-integrators space. I will also be "encouraging" involvement/testing of the Plone 3.1 release.
gkirk: ok in order for people to collaborate, I have to invite by email address
SnowWrite: ok I'm n chatzilla the moment on my lappie
SnowWrite: bleah..darn lappie keyboard
shurik: gkirk: sasha@theotheralex.com
gkirk: SnowWrite: I'm sure someone can send you  a transcript if needed
SnowWrite: donna@csquaredtech.com
gkirk: oops I did it again
gkirk: making a suggestion
shurik: SnowWrite: I can help
SnowWrite: ok can someone here commit to sending me a transcript?
shurik: gkirk: ;)
SnowWrite: thanks shurik
Logging started. Future messages in this conversation will be logged.
MattBowen|corner is now known as MattBowen|work
***SnowWrite is going to put it up on OpenPlans for those who couldn't make it
MattBowen|work: SnowWrite: +1
gkirk left the room (quit: Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)).
***SnowWrite got a bunch of private response after I posted... and they aren't here..
unclelarry: larry.pitcher@gmail.com
MattBowen|work: no good
SnowWrite: yeah
SnowWrite: probably working
SnowWrite: or in different timezone
SnowWrite: anyway... 
SnowWrite: :-)
gkirk [n=gkirk@S0106000fcbb46719.su.shawcable.net] entered the room.
SnowWrite: let's wait a sec for gkirk
SnowWrite: ta da
gkirk: dang wireless
gkirk: anyone else?
leejoramo_ [n=leejoram@75-166-114-64.hlrn.qwest.net] entered the room.
SnowWrite: larry posted his
gkirk: invites sent
gkirk: larry? can you repost?
unclelarry: larry.pitcher@gmail.com
***aclark wonders what is going on in here, exactly
SnowWrite: thanks gkirk
gkirk: fyi anyone can invite anyone 
davisagli_: dglick@gmail.com
SnowWrite: aclark: what do you mean?
aclark: SnowWrite: what is this channel for?
aclark: SnowWrite: general integrator chat?
SnowWrite: yeah I'd call it that..
***gkirk wasn't sure either, and now has created a spreadsheet for something
aclark: SnowWrite: k :-)
SnowWrite: well it's an open discussion.. 
MattBowen|work: plone-chat03@mattbowen.net
aclark: sounds good to me!
gkirk: aclark: hang around long enuf and you'll find somethin to do
unclelarry: Aren't we working on improving Plone for integrators?
SnowWrite: yes
unclelarry: :)
gkirk: alright so the idea of the spreadsheet
SnowWrite: we are integrators.. 
gkirk: is for each person to take a column
gkirk: and then write down as many roles as they can think of
gkirk: general brainstorm
gkirk: then they get merged and grouped
gkirk: until you have your definitive list
SnowWrite: just to start putting down some roles.. figure exactly how many "types" of integrators we have.. ok
SnowWrite: ok you want column A gkirk?
***SnowWrite will take b
***gkirk puts his scrummaster certification to use for the community :)
***MattBowen|work can't work on a spreadsheet until tonight 
SnowWrite: oh right.. the "work" part.. 
MattBowen|work: :)
SnowWrite: :-)
aclark: gkirk: (as an aside) i'm a plone.org admin now so you can send planet issues to me (and then i can learn how to fix them ;-)
gkirk: SnowWrite: ok
SnowWrite: ok that's fine
gkirk: everyone type their name in the first row
***aclark high fives gkirk 
gkirk: to take a column
MattBowen|work: SnowWrite: Sorry :|
gkirk: aclark: do you get a free tshirt for that?
SnowWrite: no problema... :-)
shurik: guess i'll take c
aclark: gkirk: yes, it says "i'm a plone.org admin, and all i got was this T-shirt"
***SnowWrite will have to duck out in a bit herself.. just wanted to get the discussion going
***SnowWrite will be in and out today..
***gkirk also
aclark: SnowWrite: did you register this channel?
SnowWrite: hmm roles.. 
SnowWrite: no
SnowWrite: I wanted to see how it goes...
aclark: SnowWrite: op someone before you go
SnowWrite: might do this.. once a month or something... 
aclark: SnowWrite: else we'll lose ops
***aclark irc nerd
mode (+o aclark ) by SnowWrite
aclark: thanks
***MattBowen|work is jealous
***aclark will register channel
mode (+o MattBowen|work ) by SnowWrite
MattBowen|work: haha :) awesome
aclark: hah i was going to do that
SnowWrite: ok great.. we will only meet in here.. like once a month or so
SnowWrite: just to keep each other updated... 
mode (-s+cnt ) by ChanServ
SnowWrite: that was the purpose.. and i'll give us a change to put stuff out there..
SnowWrite: it's not meant to replace anything.. just augment
SnowWrite: ok roles... hmmm
MattBowen|work: If someone wants to give me a row and put "No code product installer" in my row, that'd be hot; then I can work tonight when I'm home
ChanServ [ChanServ@services.] entered the room.
mode (+o ChanServ ) by irc.freenode.net
aclark: ChanServ!
***MattBowen|work missed good ol' ChanServ
***aclark was drinking one night with ChanServ and...
SnowWrite: I'll do it for you
MattBowen|work: SnowWrite: thanks -- then I'll remember what I'm supposed to do
gkirk: ok I'd like to help out more, but right now have some things I need to finish up today
gkirk: I was mostly curious to see what was going on :)
aclark is now known as aclark|away
shurik: gkirk: thanks for getting the spreadsheet going :)
SnowWrite: sure gkirk..thank you!
SnowWrite: we'll fill this baby up
MattBowen|work: gkirk: thanks for being awesome
SnowWrite: and maybe later tonight we can consolidate..
SnowWrite: when Matt has a chance to look at it..
gkirk: heh, well I really do want to help more in the community, I've done so little, but life is getting easier with the little ones so I think that will change as the year progresses
SnowWrite: Matt.. are you working on personas.. or is that Lilli?
gkirk: you eventually want to try and give these roles names
gkirk: what I see in the spreadsheet is more the description pieces
gkirk: which is ok to start with
SnowWrite: yeah it's hard to pin down names.. but we'll do.. should I put the spreadsheet in the topic?
unclelarry: like: Pete the Product Producer?
SnowWrite: maybe let people come in and add a row?
SnowWrite: err column
shurik: SnowWrite: i think gkirk would have to invite them first
SnowWrite: ah ok
MattBowen|work: SnowWrite: I'm gonna help with personas
SnowWrite: I think we can invite now though..
SnowWrite: ok well this'll be a good start won't it?
gkirk: anyone can invite
MattBowen|work: SnowWrite: very
SnowWrite: ok great..
gkirk: once you are in
SnowWrite: thanks again gkirk
gkirk: np
SnowWrite: we appreciate your time :-)
gkirk: another great collaboration told is mindmeister.com
gkirk: if you like mind maps
gkirk: live updating
MattBowen|work: gkirk: i've been looking for somethig like that! thanks!
SnowWrite: this seems to be working..but we'll keep it in mind..
***MattBowen|work had been using bubbl.us but didn't love it
gkirk: MattBowen|work: it's minimal, but +1 on live collaboration
***SnowWrite is responding to client email..
***shurik code a bit, but will continue to log the channel and write down roles/tasks 
You are now known as shurik|code
SnowWrite: ok great...
unclelarry is now known as unclelarry|lunch
SnowWrite has changed the topic to: Welcome to Plone Integrators. Today, February 22, 2008 is our first open discussion. Please don't be shy. Our focus today is defining roles within the plone-integrators space. Who are the integrators, what are their roles, what do they do.. We will also be "encouraging" involvement/testing of the Plone 3.1 release.  If you'd like to join the brainstorming, let someone know and they'll give you an invite to the Google Sprea
SnowWrite: bleah..
SnowWrite: too much.. lol
SnowWrite: hmmm
gkirk: SnowWrite: is there an open plans project or something?
gkirk: you could put more details there and a link to it
gkirk: plz don't ask me to set that up ;)
SnowWrite: yes there is...
SnowWrite: good idea
SnowWrite: LOL
SnowWrite: Open Plans is already set up.. hahaha
SnowWrite: great idea though..
SnowWrite: let me grab that url
SnowWrite: ok got it... http://www.openplans.org/projects/ploneintegrators/project-home now to add to topic
SnowWrite has changed the topic to: Welcome to Plone Integrators. Today, February 22, 2008 is our first open discussion. Please don't be shy. Our focus today is defining roles within the plone integrators space. We will also be encouraging involvement/testing of the Plone 3.1 release. Visit our Open Plans project at http://www.openplans.org/projects/ploneintegrators/project-home for more details.
SnowWrite: there.. :-)
SnowWrite: aclark|away: when you get a chance.. can you check planet for me.. i seem to have screwed myself up moving to a new blog location..
SnowWrite: gkirk already did it once.. and I think I gave him the wrong feed.. url
MattBowen|work: poor gkirk
SnowWrite: ok guys... I need to run for a bit... I'll be back online in about an hour or two.. we've got back to back meetings.. this afternoon
gkirk: heh
SnowWrite: :-)
gkirk: SnowWrite: I can change the feed for you
SnowWrite: ok well it's http://snowwrites.com
SnowWrite: the only reason I'm concerned is part of my "task" is to get the word out.. and I have gone and broke my blog feed :-)
SnowWrite: not sure which is supposed to be sent to planet...
gkirk: that isn't the feed though
gkirk: just the site url
SnowWrite: http://snowwrites.com/feed
SnowWrite: but I'm trying to pinpoint it to my plone posts...
SnowWrite: http://snowwrites.com/category/plone/feed
SnowWrite: ok that looks like it's it
***gkirk clicks
gkirk: yup that seems to work
jonstahl: snowwrite: that is indeed it.
SnowWrite: thank you :_)
SnowWrite: oops
SnowWrite: ok I need to prepare for our meetings today...
jonstahl: i'm not paying very close attention, but if/when you want to write up announcement of this group for plone.org as a news item,  I will happily approve it. :-)
SnowWrite: gkirk..thank you for setting up the spreadsheet... I'll be back in an hour or two..
SnowWrite: jonstahl: great... :_)
SnowWrite: darnit.. :-)
SnowWrite: I'd like to do this once a month.. online..
SnowWrite: and we need to get some "testers" ready for the 3.1 release too..
SnowWrite: jonstahl: I'll put that announce together soon...:-)
SnowWrite: OK I better go... I've got like an hour to prepare.. :-)..I'll be back
SnowWrite: shurik|code: thanks for recording this...I'll put it up on OpenPlans when I receive the transcript..
SnowWrite: bye guys... see ya in a bit..
SnowWrite left the room (quit: "ChatZilla 0.9.81 [Firefox 2.0.0.12/2008020121]").
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unclelarry left the room (quit: "See you on down the trail...").
SteveM [n=chatzill@salvia.stevemcmahon.com] entered the room.
unclelarry [n=unclelar@pre-a6-248.dsl.inlandnet.com] entered the room.
SteveM is now known as SteveM|away
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MattBowen|work left the room ("Leaving.").
SnowWrite|food [n=SnowWrit@dsl081-052-015.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] entered the room.
SnowWrite|food is now known as SnowWrite
plonepaul [n=plonepau@ip72-209-216-174.dc.dc.cox.net] entered the room.
plonepaul: SnowWhite: sorry, i thought the meeting was scheduled for feb 25
SnowWrite: that's my fault plonepaul :-)
SnowWrite: I wanted to it third friday of the month.. and I thought that was the 23rd
SnowWrite: it's an open discussion.. plonepaul :-) did you join the OpenPlans project?
aclark|away is now known as aclark
plonepaul: SnowWhite: just sent the request
SnowWrite: plonepaul: what drew you to participate ? (motivating factor?
***SnowWrite is curious
plonepaul: i care more about integrators than developers :)
SnowWrite: lol
plonepaul: i've been doing PM on some bigger projects
plonepaul: and we assemble different groups of people with different roles to play
plonepaul: and i'm interested in tipping the balance of power from developers to integrators and customer-developers
unclelarry: We have a spreadsheet for roles!
plonepaul: hoooray!
SnowWrite: yes we do...
plonepaul: that's usually a hard step to finish
SnowWrite: unclelarry..wanna send plonepaul the url
unclelarry: k
plonepaul: does the spreadsheet have anything in it? :)
***SnowWrite just moved from home office.. to actual office.. 
SnowWrite: so needs to get her bearings back
***SnowWrite 's partner is busy on phone with new client.. :-)
***SnowWrite wasn't really needed at this point
plonepaul: i loved the line from the integrator panel at google
aclark: SnowWrite: nice
plonepaul: "i finished the portlets stuff, i just didn't understand it"
SnowWrite: haha
SnowWrite: that was jesse or david?
aclark: omg
unclelarry: plonepaul: if you give me your email address, I'll invite you to collaborate...
plonepaul: jesse, i think
SnowWrite: :-)
plonepaul: paul at agendaless dot com
SnowWrite: shurik|code: you still recording :-)
SnowWrite: ?
aclark: portlets are *hard* ... i'm not saying that it's a bad thing that they've changed... but let's not try to pretend that there isn't a very large difference between 2.5 and 3, IMHO ...
***aclark </RANT>
***SnowWrite agrees wholeheartedly
***SnowWrite doesn't take to new technologies that easily.. I grabbed onto Plone and it's really treated me well.. 
plonepaul: we had a client that was a training customer of joel, loved him as usual, loved plone
SnowWrite: then Plone 3.0 came out.. and it felt like huge, huge changes..
plonepaul: tried to migrate to Plone 3
plonepaul: and now, after buying help, they're deciding to stop work on Plone and try to switch to something else
unclelarry: plonepaul: I just sent you an invite to the google docs spreadsheet
plonepaul: which is like a huge red flag
plonepaul: unclelarry: tks
SnowWrite: well now.. we are getting more calls for Plone 3 implementation..
SnowWrite: yeah we had a couple do that to us too plonepaul
unclelarry: plonepaul:np
SnowWrite: which is a shame
plonepaul: yeh
SnowWrite: it's harder to convince potential clients..
***aclark hates to hear stories like that
plonepaul: so i'm interested in civilians that don't want to worship the stack
SnowWrite: it's not that we don't eventually turn them our way.. because we are so charming ya know
plonepaul: and thus, i'm interested in whether the sitetheming stuff can ease entry
SnowWrite: but still.. it's a tougher fight
plonepaul: i just need to ask more questions to the target audience
SnowWrite: I believe it will plonepaul
SnowWrite: that and the ttw content types
plonepaul: yeh
plonepaul: +1,000 on that
SnowWrite: if I'm "Plone" user a and I want to change the news item content type.. just a little bit.. add two fields..
plonepaul: but still, we have to maintain a huge amount of humility when we tread into this
SnowWrite: right that's true
plonepaul: reduce, reduce, reduce
SnowWrite: so how do we do this..
SnowWrite: without.. offending those who work so hard on the core code
plonepaul: unclelarry: got the spreadsheet
plonepaul: SnowWhite: i think it's easy, actually
plonepaul: i really do
unclelarry: plonepaul: great!
***SnowWrite has the deepest respect for the guys who have worked so hard to make Plone what it is now
SnowWrite: reality is.. I have to sell this..
plonepaul: i think if we can take ownership on incepting this layer, the one that lennart put at the top, then it frees lower layers to be as geeky as they wanna be :)
SnowWrite: yes thats true
SnowWrite: we talked about who the target market is.. tons and tons at the summit
SnowWrite: and I think.. to be honest.. we have to make us.. the integrators.. happy first
SnowWrite: we are the ones that recommend Plone to people who call us
SnowWrite: "We need an intranet"
SnowWrite: oh Plone is good for that..
SnowWrite: We need Ecommerce..
SnowWrite: uh um..
SnowWrite: well..
SnowWrite: GetPaid is getting there.. but we still don't have a really solid story there..
SnowWrite: theming..
SnowWrite: I used to love it
plonepaul: heheh
SnowWrite:  click click click.. DIYPloneStyle created a new product for me
unclelarry: Now you must call the Ukraine...
SnowWrite: LOL
plonepaul: HA
plonepaul: denis rocks
***SnowWrite thinks denis is the bomb
plonepaul: honestly, he's about the best person i've worked with in ages
SnowWrite: but he is the ONLY guy who can theme.. in Plone 3.0.. lol
plonepaul: but, the entire Ploniverse shouldn't route through him :)
SnowWrite: totally
unclelarry: :)
witsch [n=witsch@dslb-088-073-032-190.pools.arcor-ip.net] entered the room.
plonepaul: back in the day, Zope people used to send corrupted ZODB python pickles to jim fulton
SnowWrite: i mean really theme.. not just change a logo and colors.. in base_properties no less
plonepaul: and he'd open them up in emacs
plonepaul: and there'd be all this ASCII vomit on the screen
plonepaul: and i'd think: oh...my....god
aclark: i can theme in plone3, if you count http://tbtt.fwwatch.org ;-)
plonepaul: and jim would say: "ahh, there it is"
SnowWrite: ah aclark :-)
aclark: plonepaul: hah
aclark: plonepaul: he's ex ZC?
plonepaul: he's still there
aclark: ooo
witsch: plonepaul: heh (and hi :))
plonepaul: witsch: howdy
aclark: witsch!
witsch: hey alex :)
SnowWrite: hi witsch
witsch: SnowWrite: heya :)
plonepaul: ahh....witsch==aziedler
SnowWrite: btw..plonepaul..the way we are working the spreadsheet is each person takes a column
***plonepaul has been underground too long
witsch: paul, zeidler actually, but never mind
SnowWrite: and just put down what the different integrator roles
plonepaul: oops
SnowWrite: like product integrator
SnowWrite: lol
***plonepaul smacks self
SnowWrite: don't do that.. not allowed
witsch: plonepaul: no need, i'm used to americans doing this... ;)
plonepaul: aclark: the stuff i have in my emacs buffer would possibly appeal to you
plonepaul: tres gave me the bomb
aclark: witsch: (off topic) heeeelp me with the PSC migration ;-) i've written it (copying your code) but not run it, i'd like to report that It Works(TM) sometime this wkend (if at all possible, if you don't have time don't worry about it)
aclark: plonepaul: oh?
plonepaul: teensy-weensy, zero framework stuff to hack markup on the way out the door
plonepaul: and, to flag deliverance
SnowWrite: ok plonepaul: tell us more about deliverance..why should we be excited.. from a non-programmer.. integrator standpoint
***SnowWrite is already..just because is "sounds" better.. 
plonepaul: SnowWhite: just way for the Little Dummy's Guide to Deliverance
SnowWrite: ahh lol
witsch: aclark: i'd like to, but no time this weekend.  sorry
plonepaul: that's a nod to any really, really old school internet people that might remember the big dummy's guide
shurik|code: i'm sort of working on a doc on how to use blueprint css and deliverancy to make a good looking :) blog site
witsch: aclark: i'll have time next week in the evenings, though
aclark: witsch: np, i think it's done... just need to try and run it i guess, ok will ping you then if i get stuck
witsch: aclark: or at least i hope we won't work 12 hours every day... :)
plonepaul: shurik: cool, then you'd possibly care about what we're doing as well
aclark: heh
plonepaul: SnowWhite: want the elevator pitch, or you already have that?
SnowWrite: heard the elevator pitch :-)
plonepaul: cool
witsch: aclark: can you try it locally, i.e. how big's the data.fs (+external files)?
plonepaul: SnowWhite: so there's this interesting class of customizations that shouldn't require you to fight the framework
plonepaul: things that are really just making changes to HTML
SnowWrite: right.. classes and id's that are Plone specific?
plonepaul: no and yes
plonepaul: because deliverance doesn't care if it was plone
shurik|code: considering plone is hard to get going in a consumer grade hosting package the integrator story we should/could appeal to is the one of a boutique web agency who want to give their clients a complete back end solution
plonepaul: could have been a file on the filesystem
SnowWrite: ah ok
plonepaul: basically, plone/zope/files/roundup/whatever just generate un-themed HTML
plonepaul: deliverance then fills boxes in your corporate ID
plonepaul: but you're right, that the "contract" is all in the classes and id's
plonepaul: not in slots, macros, portlet providers, etc.
unclelarry: so we leave the plone site with the Plone Default skin?
plonepaul: unclelarry: as the first step, yes
plonepaul: as the second step, we provide a stripped-down plone skin
SnowWrite: where are the boxes that get filled in? a GUI.. XML?
plonepaul: a config file
***SnowWrite remembers hearing about that..ok
SnowWrite: ok
plonepaul: currently as XML, albeit dead simple xml
unclelarry: so we make our html _less_ plone-like?
aclark: witsch: i was going to add ExternalStorage to the buildout so i could just setup a test, that's really enough for me. then i'll probably setup a test instance on antiloop that we can test the real data with (/me does not want to setup 6 different locations for externally stored files locally)
plonepaul: unclelarry: correct
plonepaul: you don't *have* to
plonepaul: but, if you'd like a performance boost
plonepaul: and if you'd like your HTML to be less about UI, and more about content, and more likely to get used with lots of themes...then yes
SnowWrite: it improve performance too??
plonepaul: oh yeh
SnowWrite: improves I mean
unclelarry: so can we create a plone product that makes your site optimized for Deliverance?
plonepaul: yes
SnowWrite: wow
plonepaul: well, you can if you want
plonepaul: or, you wait for us to do it :)
plonepaul: tres is working on a CMFXHTML product
unclelarry: by "we" I didn't really mean to volunteer...
plonepaul: a skin
witsch: aclark: true, that'd be a pita :)
SnowWrite: lol unclelarry
plonepaul: you should let us do it...i enjoy that semantic crap :)
***SnowWrite won't volunteer you like I did gkirk :-P
unclelarry: lol
witsch: aclark: so where's the buildout? :)
plonepaul: ok, gotta take off and feed the kiddies
SnowWrite: thanks plonepaul..
plonepaul: SnowWhite: thanks for organizing this
plonepaul: and sorry so tardy :(
SnowWrite: you weren't tardy plonepaul
unclelarry: plonepaul: thanks for the update!
plonepaul: yep, i'll route some ideas past the group later
SnowWrite: I'm just leaving the room open.. totally open discussion here and we really appreciate your appearance!
plonepaul: have a good weekend
SnowWrite: have a good weekend!
plonepaul left the room (quit: ).
SnowWrite: jinx
SnowWrite: dangit
***SteveM|away has enjoyed watching the discussion.
SnowWrite: :-)
SteveM|away is now known as SteveM
SnowWrite: hi SteveM :-)
SteveM: Hi, Donna!
unclelarry: SnowWrite: why didn't you get the little dot by your nick?
SnowWrite: aclark: give me op status again pleeease?
SnowWrite: cause I left
SnowWrite: lol
aclark: SnowWrite: i'm working on auto-oping you...
SnowWrite: coolio
SnowWrite: ok
unclelarry: I've gotta go for a while. Need to take a shower before the baby wakes up...
SnowWrite: ok unclelarry..thank you so much for being here..
SnowWrite: :-)
unclelarry: np
mode (+o SnowWrite ) by aclark
SnowWrite: I'll be around off and on today.. and we'll do this again in a month..
SnowWrite: and keep the discussion going at OpenPlans
SnowWrite: I'd like to see some new people
SnowWrite: hmmm
aclark: witsch: http://svn.plone.org/svn/collective/Products.PloneSoftwareCenter/branches/blob-support/
SnowWrite: any ideas guys.. on how to encourage some participation from the quieter integrators?
SnowWrite: we've all been doing this awhile.. and can find ways to "struggle" through issues we run into..
SnowWrite: what if they are a new integrator (inhereted a plone project) ..
SteveM: Periodically plug on plone-users, #plone, and planet.plone
SnowWrite: ok that's one I've been doing..
SteveM: Show that the developers are listening, so folks want to come back.
SnowWrite: ok how can we do that..?
SnowWrite: show that developers are listening?
witsch: aclark: thanks, i'll check it out so i can have a look on the plane...
SteveM: We'll have to take the boiled-down input to plone-developers.
SnowWrite: that's what I was thinking
witsch: aclark: you might wanna "svn rm Products.PloneSoftwareCenter.egg-info", though... ;)
SnowWrite: that way they aren't flooded with trivial stuff
SteveM: Turn it into PLIPs for 3.2 and 4.
aclark: witsch: cool! thanks
aclark: witsch: oh?
aclark: witsch: i just check in whatever paster creates ;-)
witsch: aclark: yeah, paster should really help setting up svn:ignores, too :)
witsch: and not create the egg-info anyway
aclark: aha
witsch: aclark: ah, but that's just the psc egg, right...  do you have a buildout for it as well?
aclark: witsch: oh, yeah sorry, sec
witsch: aclark: np :)
witsch: aclark: i assume it's http://dev.plone.org/collective/browser/PloneSoftwareCenter/buildout/branches/blob-support, right?
aclark: witsch: i should probably move this http://svn.plone.org/svn/collective/PloneSoftwareCenter/buildout/branches/blob-support/
aclark: yeah
witsch: ah well, dunno, i guess it's fine there
witsch: aclark: ok, gotta go get some sleep now... would you drop me a note when you commit that test?
aclark: witsch: will do, thanks
witsch: aclark: and i'll try to remember to svn up before i leave :)
Mech422 [n=steve@dsl081-052-015.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] entered the room.
witsch: thanks, good night! :)
witsch left the room.
Mech422: Hi all
SnowWrite: hi Mech422 :-)
Mech422: Hmm - in the 'defining roles' thing...  It would be nice to see integrators more involved in the QA/testing stuff.   Throughout the dev. cycle - for instance, making equipment available for continous build farms
SnowWrite: Mech422: we have a google spreadsheet started for brainstorming..
Mech422: We have a vested interested in making sure new versions of plone are well tested, and play well with existing products - perhaps we could break the products up into groups, and integrators with a particular interest in a group of products could monitor and test them throughout the dev. cycle ?
shurik|code: Mech422: like an early adopter role?
Mech422: shurik|code: Hmm - yes... but more so...
Mech422: shurik|code: more like a 'champion' role ?
shurik|code: ahh, i see
jonstahl left the room.
Mech422: shurik|code: providing feedback throughout the dev cycle
shurik|code: i think those of us who'll continue to contribute to this might naturally fit that
shurik|code: i.e. i'm currently working on a project that combines deliverance, quills and plone4artists
Mech422: right - integrators generally have a 'toolkit' of stuff we use all the time, and it would behoove us to make sure the toolkits are solid
shurik|code: right
Mech422: by breaking the work up amongst ourselves, we could probably keep an eye on a good portion of the 'common' or 'popular' products
shurik|code: i've recently began paying attention to PLIPs so that i know the direction everybody is headed in
Mech422: and it takes a part of the load off the core devs, as they don't have to worry about every package - they'll be able to trust the feedback they get
shurik|code: i think there was a similar idea of champions for the documentation area
Mech422: right
SnowWrite: like "editors"
shurik|code: Mech422: did you add this to the spreadsheet ;)
SnowWrite: haha.. :-)
Mech422: if we got ambitious - we could develop a 'standard' test suite for a group of packages (build scripts, selenium tests, etc) that _any_ integrator could deploy easily to help out
SnowWrite: that's a good idea..
Mech422: shurik|code: nah - I'm just brain-storming
shurik|code: Mech422: i think its reasonable to hope that we do, in a way if you read martin's book, you already know what some of the common techniques are
Mech422: shurik|code: right - the problem is to make it _repeatable_ and hopefully easy
shurik|code: Mech422: well, i think this is a great idea and you should jot it down there :)
SnowWrite: although a good book..it's designed for programmers..
Mech422: shurik|code: perhaps we could modify some of the new build-out stuff to add a 'integration-tests' target or something of that nature
SnowWrite: and I guess.. if as we discussed..one of the roles is the "programmer/integrator"
SnowWrite: that that is something that would encourage more testing..
Mech422: Hmm - with a 'feedback' script and maybe some light automated reporting
shurik|code: we'll have to decide where to draw the line between integrators and developers, personally i think it would be good to include the developer types :)
SnowWrite: I do too
Mech422: ie - buildbot reports showing what failed to build, and a feedback script that lets you easily send an email less concrete things ("Works well, but seems a little slower then previous build" ) ?
shurik|code: Mech422: yes, i've seen examples of multiple buildout cfg files where a development one is included in the main one and gets a bunch of useful tools
unclelarry: That's easy :)
unclelarry: If you don't mind the command line
shurik|code: it could be a 'starter' test suite for browser tests or selenium tests, that uses the standard plone site
Mech422: shurik|code: ya know - that could be _really_ useful...  by having a standard build-out config, core devs. could re-create problems more easily (ie 'foo fails to build with the 'integrator-ldap-tests' buildout )
shurik|code: yep
Mech422: no guessing as to what settings were used, or what products were installed...
mode (+o SnowWrite ) by aclark
aclark: oops :-)
shurik|code: well as i said i'm currently working on a couple of sites that use a set of tech that's pretty common and i'm planning to write up how i'm doing it and could release the resulting buildout recipe
shurik|code: i don't there's anything revolutionary about it, but it might be the pattern we're describing
Mech422: shurik|code: sounds good
Mech422: I already told baekholt I can make a machine available in a good fast co-lo facility for stuff like running a buildbot or automated tests
Mech422: Hmm - If we build up a machine with a good set of tests - we could even make it available as a vmware image - save people having to install stuff ;-)
SteveM is now known as SteveM|away
unclelarry: Mech422: now you're talking!
shurik|code: :)
Mech422: actually - the 'hardest' and 'most useful' parts of this would be the feedback ..
shurik|code: i added my interpretation of what we've talked about to the spreadsheet we're keeping as notes for this channel
SnowWrite: thanks shurik :-)
SnowWrite: I'll get that up on OpenPlans today..and do a write up on my blog
shurik|code: Mech422: what do you think will be hard about it?
Mech422: we'd need to make it easy to send feedback, with a standardized format (buildout-target, products, etc etc)
SnowWrite: (I encourage you guys to do it too)
shurik|code: ahh
Mech422: what we _don't_ want is people running the tests, seeing something is broken, and not telling anyone :-P
SnowWrite: but again.. we need to bring new integrators into the fold.. so maybe this'll do it..
aclark left the room.
aclark [n=aclark@ns1.aclark.net] entered the room.
unclelarry: While I'm here - what's the best solution for an artists (photography, paintings) web site? Is it some plone products or something else?
shurik|code: well, what if the "tests" contained a script that would send an email 
shurik|code: unclelarry: plone4artists
***SnowWrite was gonna say what shurik said
SnowWrite: and unclelarry.. join their mailing list
unclelarry: Thanks!
SnowWrite: nate is really helpful
Mech422: shurik|code: right - some sort of 'feedback' tool - like firefox has "Oops, we crashed, care to send a bug report ?"
SnowWrite: (when he isn't too busy :-))
shurik|code: unclelarry: if you want a professional gallery and don't mind PHP gallery2 is great
shurik|code: Mech422: yep
***SnowWrite usually ignores those
***SnowWrite hides
unclelarry: That's the kind of thing we're looking for I think
shurik|code: give them the option of enabling or disabling it in case they're working on a closed project
mode (+o aclark ) by ChanServ
SnowWrite: yeah that's a really good point shurik
Mech422: shurik|code: Ohh - good idea - hadn't thought of that
unclelarry: We don't want to look like BigBrother...
mode (+o shurik|code ) by SnowWrite
Mech422: shurik|code: or for that matter - when your doing early stage work and you already _know_ its broken :-P
***SnowWrite :-)
shurik|code: nothing wrong with a little BigBrother
***shurik|code is a former soviet
unclelarry: little brother
SnowWrite: hahaha
mode (-o aclark ) by ChanServ
shurik|code: whats with aclark
***aclark keeps it on the DL
SnowWrite: :-)
shurik|code: does he have to remind us he's the op?
shurik|code: :)
SnowWrite: heehee
aclark: SnowWrite: you should be able to op yourself in here now
aclark: haven't figured out autops yet
SnowWrite: thank you so much aclark :-)
aclark: np
SteveM|away: aclark: /msg ChanServ HELP ACCESS
aclark: SteveM|away: yup
aclark: SteveM|away: says it's on by default, i just set secure and secureops ...
aclark: not sure what else
SnowWrite: yeah I saw the level 30 thingie
aclark: SnowWrite: tee hee hee
SnowWrite: :-)
Mech422: ok - what other things could integrators do to help the cause ?
SnowWrite: aclark.. did you get invite to spreadsheet?
aclark: Mech422: not complain about how hard Plone 3 is? ;-)
***aclark ducks
SnowWrite: SteveM.. need your email.. Paul Everitt may add some stuff..
SnowWrite: LOL
Mech422: end user docs seem to be pretty well covered
SnowWrite: and MattBowen said he'd add stuff tonight
shurik|code: god gmail knows i can read russian, now that's big brother :)
SteveM|away: SnowWrite: steve - at - dcn.org
SnowWrite: thanks SteveM
Mech422: aclark: Heh
unclelarry: Google knows all :)
Mech422: aclark: actually, thats an interesting point... What makes plone 3 'harder' ?
unclelarry: more power, more flexibility
SteveM|away: indirection
SteveM|away is now known as SteveM
shurik|code: Mech422: no refresh?
Mech422: SteveM|away: but 15 levels of pointer indirection is just _cool_ :-)
SteveM: That's it in a nutshell ;)
shurik|code: hm, well i guess you just have to remember to turn on debug, nm
Mech422: so we have more power,  and flexibility packaged with more indirection making it harder to find what you want ??
SteveM: Or even know what's causing what.
SteveM: We have to grep both .py and .zcml
shurik|code: and .xml...
Mech422: SteveM: one thing I find in plone 2 - dunno about plone 3 - is there is soo much _noise_ in the logs, its hard to see the forest for the trees ..
aclark: Mech422: well
SteveM: P3 is actually much better on that score.
Mech422: SteveM: ahh - good point - things are more 'scattered' now ?
shurik|code: p3 is much better with log noise
aclark: Mech422: i can tell you my portlets story from today...
SteveM: Mech422: And require knowing Zope 2 and Zope Component architectures.
Mech422: SteveM: yes, there have been a lot of new technologies added to the mix..
SteveM: It does make it more versatile and customizable -- at the expense of complexity.
Mech422: aclark: sure...
SnowWrite: the barrier to entry has gotten taller.. bigger.. whatever you want to call it
SnowWrite: lookit who is here now..? no newbies..
Mech422: ahh - very good point...
SnowWrite: could be timing..but my goal here is to "expand" and pull the quiet ones in so they can tell us what they experience
SteveM: Also, the new framework is more testable.
SnowWrite: right
SteveM: P3's quality assurance has been astonishing.
SnowWrite: but its still hard.. (you know what i mean)
SnowWrite: so is it worth it?
SteveM: Oh yes :(
SteveM: Oh yes, I know, that is.
Mech422: so how could we make this powerful, flexible technology more 'accessible' to new developers ? (tall order! )
SnowWrite: that is an excellent way to phrase it
Mech422: ohh - there's a good summary of the problem...
shurik|code: put it on the spreadsheet :)
SteveM: I think we've got lots of excellent initiatives under way
aclark: ok
SnowWrite: we do.. with the champions?
Mech422: newbie: "so is it worth it"   developer: "oh yes!"
SteveM: But, they'll take a while to bear fruit.
SnowWrite: that's true
Mech422: how do we _show_ the newbies the benefit ?  In simple concrete terms ?
SteveM: E.G., Deliverance may make restyling much easier.
SnowWrite: but the more people we can build excitement in...
SnowWrite: right Paul talked about that today
SnowWrite: it needs to be "publicized" more
SteveM: Don't quote me on this, but we may look back on Plone 3 as pain we had to undergo to get to Plone 4.
SnowWrite: yeah that's possible SteveM
SnowWrite: but in the meantime.. we don't want to lose potential adopters
SnowWrite: or current enterprise users who get frustrated.. and move on
unclelarry: So what can we do in the next few weeks???
Mech422: SteveM: I'm a big believer in 'break it once, and only once' (perl 6, python 3k, linux 2.6, etc ) - but thats a hard sell to a new developer ?
SnowWrite: it's gonna be what six months until Plone 4 comes out? or longer?
SteveM: I suspect longer.
SnowWrite: yeah..
SnowWrite: unclelarry: well firstly..
SnowWrite: do what we can to modify the barrier..
unclelarry: Maybe we could come up with some scripts, installers, etc. to make buildout easier?
SnowWrite: better docs... screencasts
SnowWrite: yeah that's in the works right?
unclelarry: right
SnowWrite: a GUI buildout builder.. derek's championing that one I think?
SnowWrite: we need people to be a bit more verbal..even if it means.. writing to our team and saying HEY..
unclelarry: So if we can't _fix_ things right away, we can at least smooth out some wrinkles and give good explanations.
SnowWrite: and letting us consolidate and deliver to the developers
SnowWrite: right
Mech422: From a developer standpoint - maybe a set of 'future tests' - so you can see how your code would work with proposed changes ?
Mech422: sorta like 'from future' in python
SteveM: We need to keep up the lobbying for integration of buildout and the windows installer. I've been getting some resistance on that.
SnowWrite: who is resisting?
unclelarry: Sidnei just emailed that he's stuck on Enfold Server 4 but after that he'll help...
Mech422: SteveM: I'd think that is a _must_ - as joel mentioned, a lot of people 'test' plone on a windows box - we need that to be a first class citizen
SteveM: unclelarry: Good news!
***SnowWrite totally agrees
SnowWrite: Mech422 teases me about insisting on using Windows..but it's out there.. and I download the newest version with the Enfold windows installer..
***SteveM is reading sidnei's e-mail...
shurik|code: buildout works on windows
***SnowWrite hasn't figured it out..
***SnowWrite has used Putty on our debian machines..
SnowWrite: but just not that comfy in the command line..but I do it when I have to
unclelarry: buildout on Windows works 4 me!
SteveM: shurik|code: Right. We just need to integrate it with a GUI installer.
shurik|code: yea
SnowWrite: you use the dos box unclelarry?
aclark: so, it's just plain "harder" to do things in p3 that were "easy" in 2.5 ... the learning curve is worth it IMO, but i'm sure i am in the minority... most integrators don't know or care how to figure out how to do *again* what they already knew how to do. period (no matter what the benefits). This is a big mistake, IMO, we should have continued to support left_slots and right_slots for portlets for a lot longer (classic portlet is not enough)... b
unclelarry: SnowWrite: sure!
***aclark </RANT>
leejoramo [n=leejoram@75-166-114-64.hlrn.qwest.net] entered the room.
***SnowWrite hears you aclarck
SnowWrite: oops aclark
Mech422: oh hey - almost forgot...
SnowWrite: it isn't just about "having to learn it again"
Mech422: I asked the eric4 dev about adding paste support a while back, and he seemed pretty open to the idea
Mech422: if he adds that, and we have some nice paste 'templates for plone - we'd have an instant IDE :-)
SnowWrite: I guess it's just.."Hey I have this down now".. pride in our learning something..
SteveM: I think the enthusiasm for Zope 3 tech took us on a side trip where TTW customization was deprecated.
shurik|code: Mech422: is that related to ZopeSkel?
SnowWrite: that's a big mistake..
SteveM: I do think the core sees that this didn't work out well.
SnowWrite: i'm sorry but ttw customization will always be an expectation..
SnowWrite: as much of a pain as it is.. for portability..
Mech422: shurik|code: yeah - in a round about way - paste installs zopeskel that creates a buildout recipie (I think)
shurik|code: and repeatability
SnowWrite: exactly shurik
shurik|code: Mech422: my head is spinning
SteveM: Maybe we need a call for testimony: "I'm SteveM, and I customize some sites TTW."
aclark: SteveM: hannosh has done that
***SnowWrite would be next in line
***SnowWrite took six months to get filesystem (DIYPloneStyle) customization down.. 
SnowWrite: and that was with Mech422's help
SnowWrite: can you imagine someone who inherits Plone.. and doesn't have anyone to hellp
SnowWrite: help that is..
***SnowWrite is probably slower than most :-)
SnowWrite: but still
SnowWrite: so I spent the first ohhh 5 years with zope/plone.. customizing ttw
SnowWrite: kept getting told it was bad..
SnowWrite: but the fact is.. there are many, many users out there.. doing just that.. and that's why they still use Plone
Mech422: Can I ask a serious question ? (non-troll, honest)... If plone is a 'product', for end-users - what is the use case for TTW ?
***SnowWrite guesses she's preaching to the choir..
Mech422: do that many end users really customize content types ?  Or is it mostly a skinning thing ?
SteveM: For implementors doing light site customization that doesn't need a high degree of repeatability.
SnowWrite: right..change a logo.. go to base_properties and change font colors.. etc
Mech422: ahh  - ok, so its not really intended for end-user consumption ?
SteveM: Right
SteveM: I think of end users as being the folks who forget it's even Plone.
***aclark considers adding backwards compat for old skool portlets, i mean how hard could it be to let people continue to set left and right slots then do the work for them.... wait, i wonder what happens if you just set a left_slot, i wonder if the legacy portlet converter will convert them.. probably yes
SnowWrite: they use Kupu
SteveM: They're just managing content.
SnowWrite: or FckEditor..
Mech422: SteveM:  right - exactly - thats why the big call for TTW confused me...
SnowWrite: yes but there is a level above that... me..
SteveM: Mech422: It's about inexpensive customization (in my mind)
SnowWrite: the person who deals with the client.. shouldn't have to go to a developer to make a simple change to a content type..
SteveM: And you shouldn't need to see Python to skin.
SnowWrite: right
SteveM: Though I do love Python ;)
Mech422: Does the problem get any easier if we 'limit' TTW to typical 'skinning' operations ?  Or is that as much work as full blown content type creation/modification ?
SteveM: I think the use case for some level of content type customization TTW is strong.
Mech422: ahh.. ok
SteveM: So many folks want to tack a field onto a standard type.
aclark: hells yes
SnowWrite: and paying a Plone dev to do that.. well.. it seems like they should be used for larger.. more involved implementations..
SnowWrite: the integrator should be able to do that..
***SteveM is reminded that there are folks in our community who don't understand the use case for PloneFormGen. "Why not just use CMFFormController?"
Mech422: yeah - that I could see - but I could see other ways of handling the 'add a field' problem then full blown customization (for instance, a seperate catalog with user defined fields or something )
SnowWrite: like plonepaul said..it's that layer on top of lennart's image..
aclark: what's lennart's image ?
SteveM: A fu manch beard IIRC.
SteveM: fu manchu
SnowWrite: ahh I need to see if I can get that presentation from him.. I think it's online
SnowWrite: lol
SnowWrite: he did a short presentation on what zope did wrong...
SteveM: Is that "what Zope did wrong..."
Mech422: SteveM: ploneFormGen is a great example of addressing a weak spot - why _can't_ we use reportlab, etc and get a decent reporting system for plone ? :-P
SnowWrite: right
SteveM: Mech422: Wasn't reporting one of the PSPS intiatives? Or, did that get lost?
Mech422: SteveM: I think it got lost...
SnowWrite: and what Paul Everitt said earier today was this.. our integrator story.. is the top layer (or one of them anyway)
SteveM: I thought that the final prep for dot-ocracy was the only realy weak point in our process.
Mech422: SteveM: I'd settle for using a 3rd party tool for generating say an xml report definition, that something in plone could process :-P
SteveM: Do I sense a champion?
Mech422: Where ?
***Mech422 hides
SnowWrite: you wouldn't have to do it..:-)
aclark is now known as aclark|away
SnowWrite: just find people to do it
Mech422: SteveM: actually - in a few weeks, I could probably put some cycles into it...
SteveM: Mech422: I think it would be well-received.
Mech422: SteveM: the big thing would be getting a consensus on what a 'reporting solution' actually _is_ or should _do_
SteveM: +1
SteveM: And, not letting it get overcomplicated by multiple levels of abstraction.
Mech422: SteveM: (Of course, I've also been meaning to add some 'plugins' to ploneformgen to allow it to do more stuff with collected data, so I'm probably full of it when I claim to have cycles to spare :-P )
Mech422: SteveM: right - no more then 15 layers!
Mech422: SteveM: in at least 6 directories :-)
SteveM: Wow. Some very clever phishing in my inbox.
SnowWrite: hm... I got a return on the spreadsheet link.. I tried to send SteveM..hmm
Mech422: SteveM: the biggest technical challenge I see with reporting is getting people to support the idea of SQL connectivity in plone
SteveM: steve@dcn.org
SnowWrite: ugh..i'm a dummy :-P
SnowWrite: not .com
Mech422: SteveM: that seems to meet with resistance for some reason
***SnowWrite sighs and tries again
SteveM: It can be hard to convince some folks that there is data that models better relationally than with an ODB.
shurik|code: SnowWrite: i'm gonna take off soon, would you like me to send you the log of this channel?
Mech422: SteveM: yeah - I'd love to see plone ship with say sqlite (something zero maintenance) and a tool to access it....
SteveM: After just dumping on abstraction, I do think it would need to be pluggable.
SnowWrite: If you could
Mech422: SteveM: of course, you could customize the tool to use a real sql server if you need heavy lifting, but at least _something_ would be available for 'light' needs
SnowWrite: I'll figure out how to log it
Mech422: SteveM: right
shurik|code: ok
SnowWrite: I'll probably write up a synopsis of the talk anyway..but make this avail if anyone wants to see details
SnowWrite: the "chat" i mean :-)
SteveM: Great discussion folks; I need to head off to take care of the family.
Mech422: SteveM: maybe use something like SQLAlchemy to reduce resistance from people that love objects, and provide cross-database compatiblity ?
SnowWrite: thanks so much for participating SteveM
Mech422: SteveM: bye!  and Thanks!
SteveM: Mech422: Gotta go, but I think SQLAlchemy is too complex for this.
SteveM is now known as SteveM|away
Mech422: Hmm - yeah... why go faster with sql to slow it down with orm
Mech422: ah well - just a thought
SnowWrite: Ok I'll leave the channel open for the rest of the day..just in case we get some new integrators in..and the next gathering is March 22nd.. keep an eye out on Open Plans
unclelarry: SnowWrite: I hope there will be an email :-)
SnowWrite: yes there will be
SnowWrite: :)